The first time I went to France (about 60 years ago) I was at a service station on the autoroute (motorway) and popped into the toilets which had both urinals and individual cubicles.
As I was standing at a urinal a lady walked past me. I had a minor panic attack thinking I must be in the ladies toilets until I realised that there were both sexes represented. Having been brought up in the UK the idea of shared toilets had never occurred to me. To the French it was normal.
In the UK this has become a huge question with the issue of which toilet trans-sexual people should use. The decision in the Supreme Court was that you use whichever is appropriate to your biological sex.
I haven't been following the matter but the issue seems to have revolved around women's safety.
As Peter Cook used to say "It's a funny old world, Dud." Funny peculiar not funny ha ha I assume.
I was thinking about the same issue, Graham, having been in countries where both genders use the same facilities. I think we sometimes create problems where they don’t exist.
ReplyDeleteDavid, I'm with you on that you on that one.
DeleteWould I fear for my safety if I were using a toilet with cubicles for women, men and everyone else? No, I would not. I would simply do what I always do - shut and lock the door of my cubicle, do what I need to do, pull up my trousers or pull down my skirt again, unlock the door and wash my hands.
ReplyDeleteIn what way would a person of a sex different to my own represent any danger to me during that time, if all they'd be doing was the same as I, using the toilet?
Of course danger lurks around every corner, but a man who intents to harm women would not be stopped by a "ladies" sign on a toilet door, would he. He would go in anyway, and attack (if that was his intention) or expose himself (if that was his intention).
What's all the fuss about, I wonder.
Meike, the voice of common sense as always.
DeleteI remember using a public men's toilet in Europe, I forget which country, and there was a female cleaner doing her job as men came and went for what they needed to do. Perfectly normal in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteAndrew, I recall being on the Autoroute through the DDR and using the toilets where a fearsome female took a fee and gave you several sheets of toilet paper. Having been forewarned I already had plenty in my pocket. It was a good job because the 'paper' she was giving out was full of skelfs.
DeleteYou mean you don't have separate facilities in your house, Graham?
ReplyDeleteThe problem, I feel, is mostly from people that, (I forget the right word), are rooted in thinking of body-gender aligned people as perverts. In America, I think people are generally more uptight and territorial about restrooms. Back in the 1950s, public restrooms were scarce. Imagine if that was the case today. Signs on every tree…Posted…Bears Only!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I'm a little puzzled by your comment to be honest. I would have described 'body-gender aligned as being aligned according to one's physical attributes ie vagina = female and penis = male. Please advise me if my thinking is incorrect.
DeleteI wasn't sure what to expect when I saw your blogpost title - I was a "wee" bit trepidatious!
ReplyDeleteI have used mixed gender loos when away on holiday around the World but have to admit to feeling just slightly uncomfortable about it at times. Perhaps it is my background / upbringing, I don't know.
JayCee, I think that the culture in which you and I were brought up just assumed that the labels of public toilets meant exactly that. However we didn't have the complications of a general acceptance and everyday assumption that there were a lot of trans people. Homosexuals and lesbians were still male and female and today's nuances, whilst doubtless existing, were not mentioned.
DeleteIt's a ridiculous fuss here in the US and just another way for haters to make trouble for people they don't understand or approve of. Like Meike says, if someone wants to attack a person, they don't bother obeying the restroom signs, do they.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, Ellen, succinctly stated.
DeleteIt would certainly get my attention if a female sauntered through a bathroom I was using.
ReplyDeleteRed, it would get my attention too in the UK but not in France.
DeleteI'd feel uncomfortable with the scene you describe, with open urinals in the same room as the individual cubicles. I'd definitely think I'd gone into the wrong room if I entered a place like that. I've never seen that anywhere here though. We have the transgender discussions here too of course but I take dressing rooms and showers at gyms/swimhalls etc, to be the bigger issue.
ReplyDeleteYes, Monica, changing rooms would certainly be a bigger issue. I've not heard it mentioned here though.
DeleteJust use the ones that suit the "equipment" you have....or just take a seat....less bother!! Cubicles are far more sensible and less fuss
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, Gwynneth.
DeletePersonally I'm not bothered if a trans person came into my bathroom area, the toilet doors in public loos all lock anyway.
ReplyDeleteAmy where there are separate cubicles I would consider it less of an issue (personally it wouldn't be an issue at all).
DeleteIn France it is common to find a 'Madame Pi Pi' in men's loos. They look after everything; clean, etc. Often they are given a small tip before leaving.
ReplyDeleteYes, Cro, I'd quite forgotten about that.
DeleteI am going to take a bit of a tangent. While doing diversity traiing my class was asked how we would direct a trans person to the toilets. I say point them in the general direction as youwould anyone else but the consencus was to direct them to the accessible toilet. In my opinion, that is wrong. If I had spent my life fighting to be recognised as any given gender, i would want to be able to use the appropriate room. True inclusion is about being accepted, directing people to the accessible room is just a covert form of discrimination.
ReplyDeleteIt's a soapbox of mine
Kylie, I'm not at all surprised by your approach because of your caring nature. I, too, would do as I would to anyone and point them in the general direction. It is not my nature to 'judge' people in that way. However, whilst, some trans people make themselves very obvious I suspect that most do not.
DeleteI think it is to do with the way we were brought up. If we have always been used to ladies and men's toilets, it could be a tad uncomfortable to see both sexes using the same toilet. However, it is not a big issue when travelling to different countries. "When in Rome......."
ReplyDeleteExactly, Diane, exactly!
DeleteI can honestly say that I have never studied anyone in a public restroom and felt the need to ask them if they had a vagina. Live and let live.
ReplyDeleteDebby, in Rural New Zealand it was quite usual to come across rural toilets which were stand alone single units and nobody cared. I do think we occasionally get too hung up on these things.
DeleteWe experienced unisex bathrooms when traveling in Italy last fall and it wa not an issue as there were separate cubicles with locking doors. And what it comes down to is that when someone perceives the "call of nature" there cannot be a debate on which gender-specific facility to use.
ReplyDeleteBeatrice, I think that the British have just got hung up on the subject. As a young man I probably cared (I can't recall) but as an octogenarian I couldn't give a tinker's fig.
DeleteHere in Montreal, Canada 🇨🇦 there is a new shopping mall with unisex bathrooms. This is a first, as the other malls have separate ones.
ReplyDeleteI suppose, Linda, that could be the French influence.
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