The weather has been perfect for the garden. Well, not quite perfect but very good for getting the winter damage cleared away and the basics of the alterations I want to make done. So I've been absent from Blogland most of the time.
However, I did read Robert (Bob) Brague's recent post entitled 'Sorry or Not Sorry'. It's brief. Basically it gave a politician's purported apology and an an analysis of whether it was an apology. It's worth a read because we see the same thing every day and probably let it go without thought or comment. In short when is an apology an apology.
I have no idea what offence the apologiser had given but it did make me think.
My question, though is 'When is an offence for which an apology is demanded due an unconditional apology?'
I was brought up in a family of strong women with fairly 'modern' views on the role of women but also on the respect that women were due from men.
I was taught to walk on the road side of a lady. I was taught to open doors for my elders and for ladies. I gave up my seat for a lady on public transport. I was taught that compliments were acceptable and that flattery was not. Above all I was taught manners and respect.
I have during my life been complimented on occasion for being a gentleman (thank you, Parents).
In the last few decades though things have changed. I have been told on occasion that I am a chauvinist (and less complimentary comments) for doing all of those things.
To the extent that when I was in hospital a few years ago I was aware that one of the female nurses (who, as it happens I knew 30 years ago when she was a youngster) had a particularly friendly smile when she was attending to patients. I told her, quite spontaneously and without thinking, that she had a beautiful smile. As the words left my lips I realised that men these days have been taken severely to task for such things. I hastily apologised (unconditionally) even though I had in my mind, and in the minds of many I'm quite sure, done nothing wrong but was aware that some might take severe offence at my words. As it happens she responded by saying that I could tell her that as often as I like and thanked me for the compliment.
Bob's argument was that if I had said "I'm sorry if I have offended you" it would not have been an apology. My argument is that things are often not that straightforward.
Manners are treasures always with you.
ReplyDeleteThings the way there are today reminds me of kids making up rules on the playground.
Thank you, Maywyn, I hadn't thought of that analogy but I think you've hit the nail on the head.
DeleteLuckily, gentlemanly behaviour is still appreciated over here, but back in England one now risks being lambasted for holding a door open, or offering a seat, to a woman. What a strange world it's become. I much preferred it before as it came naturally to me. Now I need to think twice before doing what I always knew as correct. Equality isn't always pleasant; women fighting on the front line will always seem odd.
ReplyDeleteCro, now that I've exceeded my Biblical allotment I would stay seated for young females but would offer my seat to on older person. If the latter I'd be inviting the comment "You need it more than I do!"
DeleteThis is an interesting post and some intricate behaviors that are not always straight forward.
ReplyDeleteThat, Red, is indeed true.
DeleteWell, you've always been a gentleman towards me, Graham...something I appreciate...so you have no need to apologise to me. :)
ReplyDeleteTake good care.
Thank you, Lee. I shall always do my best but it's good to know that manners are still sometimes appreciated.
DeleteGraham - 'manners' are a genuine state of being. If your good manners and respectfulness extends to all humanity irrespective of gender then no one (but NO ONE) can have any grounds for complaint, and no apology should be necessary (or expected).
ReplyDeleteThank you, Tigger. I was brought up to believe that everyone is equal before God and the law. I no longer believe in a God and, in my professional life, I have occasionally wondered about the latter too. However I still firmly believe everyone should be shown respect and good manners. It saddens me when people reject that or, in some cases, see it as a weakness to be derided.
DeleteNever apologise unless you are about to be belted by someone younger and stronger and even then the apology is rarely accepted. Apologies just encourage folk to become sensitive.
ReplyDeleteAdrian, I could guarantee that you advice would be interesting.
DeleteIt strikes me as sad that one should feel having done something wrong, worth of an apology, when it simply was a genuine compliment, and the recipient understood it as such.
ReplyDeleteYour post really offers food for thought.
While I do not think any man needs to give up his seat for me merely on the grounds of me being a woman (he might be on his way home from a physically demanding job when I have spent the day sitting at my desk), I do like a nice, genuine compliment, whether it comes from a man or a woman.
PS: For some reason, your previous post about printers never showed up on my reading list.
DeleteMeike, I was taught only to give compliments and that flattery "corrupts both the giver and the receiver" and I have tried steadfastly to stick to that. As regards offering my seat these days, as I said to Cro, I could be inviting the comment "You need it more than I do!"
DeleteI've no idea why my last post didn't appear in the reading list. I thought it was just the boring nature of the post that had elicited few comments.
DeleteGentlemen, such as you Graham, are fast becoming a minority and I feel the world is a sadder place for it. Given the choice between interacting with a rude, crass selfish person or someone who would pay a compliment or open a door for me with a smile, I know which I would prefer. So never apologise for being as you are.
ReplyDeletePS: Like Meike, I too did not receive a notification of your post on Printers in my Reading List.
Jaycee, thank you very much (on behalf of my parents) for your opening word. It makes my natural actions worthwhile.
DeleteAs I said to Meike I thought it was just the boring nature of the previous post that had elicited few comments.
Priti Patel, our Home Secretary, had to apologise for bullying civil servants but it was a very mealy-mouthed apology. In fact what she really said was "I am sorry if they felt that way". This was her profuse apology! Disgraceful!
ReplyDeleteIn other words, YP, it wasn't an apology.
DeleteAs others have commented, Graham, your last post about printers, gripping though it was, never appeared in my blog feed. As for this one, I am bound to say that chivalry, and the concept of being a gentleman (translation - decent person), should never die. To the best of my ability I practice it every day. Now, when is an apology not an apology? Life is not so cut and dried as to have a single definitive answer. I can give you an actual example from the news here. A bus driver, originally from the UK, a cockney if I remember the details well, would cheerily say to his female passengers as they got off the bus, "Mind your step, love" or "Watch how you go darling" - expressions such as that. It was the way he spoke. Friendly in my opinion. But a woman complained to the company that it was sexist and assured them that she was not his love, or his pet, and didn't wish to be addressed as such and found it offensive. The driver was suspended for a brief period and reinstated after issuing an apology in which he said that he was sorry if he had offended anyone. I think that was a genuine statement and not wishy-washy or evasive in any way. Happily, many others sprung to his defence and indicated that his cheery manner warmed their hearts. Now as for those devious politicians for whom an apology is a way out of a jam, that's another story entirely!
ReplyDeleteDavid, thanks for that. I agree absolutely. Intent is the key. Our Home Secretary's apology (see YP above) "I am sorry if they felt that way" was clearly a declaration of innocence rather than an apology. However the circumstances were entirely different from your Cockney Bus Driver who, in my view, should not have been suspended. Many female Glaswegians address every man (and some women) as 'hen'. It is classless and, like your Cockney bus driver, just part of traditional way of addressing people. It may be seen as outdates now but must all traditions if they occasionally offend a tiny few be stopped?
DeleteIn my opinion the civil servants who said they were upset at being told in no uncertain terms something about their uselessness or whatever by the Home Secretary were a group of spineless individuals who reflect the times we live in where it has reached the point where it is not possible to say anything to anyone and what is now called bullying is nothing more than somebody telling somebody something which they need to hear but which for reasons of stupidity they are reluctant to hear.
ReplyDeleteRachel, neither you nor I know the facts of the cases involved nor, I suspect, have you any evidence for saying that the civil servants were spineless individuals.. I doubt very much that there are many stupid very senior civil servants. It is not unusual, I agree, for politicians to bully civil servants. The difference is that, until now, it has been accepted that politicians can speak to civil servants much as they please and with impunity. Life is altering. Politicians are under greater scrutiny in social media and civil servants are less afraid of speaking out. Of course some politicians throw tantrums and some civil servants may be regarded as over-reacting. My point in relation to the Home Secretary was that she did not make an apology - she purported to make one. Which basically leaves her looking like the spineless one. I would suggest that she should either have apologised or had the courage to say that she did not bully them and face the consequences.
DeleteI thought she was the victim of spineless individuals who needed to get over it. In fact my comment was in the main reflecting on society today.
DeleteRachel, I agree that there has been a considerable change in the views of society today in relation to personal interactions.
DeleteDear Graham,
ReplyDeleteManners and respect all go together with our dearest held virtue, that of kindness. these are treasures in our view to be given or to receive.
We find that one can always tell if a gesture is genuine or not. Good manners, showing respect, common courtesies and acts of kindness require no explanation or apology in our book if they are genuinely felt and meant. We are certain that your kindly gestures are well intentioned and sincere, as the nurse clearly witnessed. These will always be appreciated by those for whom such kindnesses matter and make the world a nicer and more civilised place to be.
Politicians seem to operate by a different rule book. We have never been taken in by a 'kissing a baby' photograph or a "I had no wish to cause offence" apology. It would appear that the taxpayers have funded a £340,000 payout for Priti Patel's behaviour....so someone was not entirely satisfied with her apology....
Dear Jane and Lance, thank you for your kind support. I felt reassured by the nurse's reaction and, although I will be more circumspect in future, I am too old and have no inclination to alter what I regard to be good manners and kind gestures. The comment to the nurse was made on the ward and not in private.
DeleteThe taxpayers have indeed paid out at least that (which was to one individual there may be more involved) and it would not have been made if it could have been avoided.
I think I agree with you that "things are not always that straightforward". I'd also agree that there are a lots of ways to make insincere apologies, though (and politicians especially have a tendency to excel at it). There's usually a lot more that comes into it than the mere words.
ReplyDeleteMonica, there is, I agree, more to any situation which might involve an apology than simple words. We are complex creatures.
DeleteFalse apologies: Reminds me of mother and toddler groups when there'd be a stand-off between toddlers. Say, over whose turn it was to sit on that precious trike. I always thought it peculiarly English that mothers would rush in and tell their victorious offspring to say "sorry". The toddler looking blankly: Sorry for what? As I learnt early on, the English will apologize for you standing on THEIR toes.
ReplyDeleteAs to manners. Don't believe everything you read. If a man doesn't hold open the door for me (his arms being stronger than mine unless he is a weed), if a man (or woman) doesn't offer their seat on public transport for an older or pregnant woman, indeed for an older man or a youngster with his arm in plaster, it's not only just plain BAD manners. It's inconsiderate. Thoughtless. Then and now.
Take it from me: The same women who, without fine nuance, cry equality in misguided interpretation of feminism, will quietly weep into their assorted hankies when not shown courtesy, chivalry by men. Then. And now.
Having said that, and to lighten the mood, I once, say seventeen years of age, walked along a very long road in the middle of nowhere with my father. In the dark. He insisted walking on the road side. I prefer to walk on people's left side. Which left us with a conundrum as neither of us budged to the other. Resulting, oh the fun of it, me walking behind him. Oh did my mother laugh when we arrived, in goose fashion, one after the other.
U
Thank you for your thoughts, Ursula. It's interesting being reminded of the eccentric approach Brits can take to some things (first paragraph). Your remaining comments were enlightening and I smiled at the battle of wills between you and your father.
DeleteI always apologize if I realize I have done/said something wrong and upset someone, as I hate the thought of being rude. But some people seem to take offence at anything (like David's bus driver's complainant) instead of just allowing life to flow.
ReplyDeleteAs a side comment, we are still waiting for our PM to apologize for the incorrect and damning comments she made about two people who went to work when the Health Dept said they could, but who later came down with Covid and caused Auckland to enter last week's lockdown. But politicians always seem to have issues with saying sorry :)
Margaret, I hadn't heard that your PM had made that error. In the circumstances you outline I would have thought she was the sort of person who would have apologised unreservedly. Politicians seem to have difficulties in being 'wrong' everywhere. I've always found that the easiest way out when I'm wrong is to diffuse the situation by admitting it.
DeleteI've been busy in the garden too.
ReplyDeleteTasker it's great isn't it. I think that things are going to change this coming wee though. By the way did you see Monica's comment on my last post? It seems that you posted on it last November when it accidentally appeared for a short while as a draft.
DeleteI've just seen it. I have a few half written drafts in my list of posts too, and have been know to click 'Publish' before they are finished. One of the good things about the new Blogger (well there must be some) is that it now double checks for confirmation before publishing.
DeleteI wish that your beliefs were spread throughout society Graham, trust me there's alot be said for those old fashioned customs but there is nothing wrong with complimenting someone about their smile, sometimes it's simple words like that that can make someone's day.
ReplyDeleteAmy, thank you for your supportive words. I think most of us like compliments and I find it hard to understand why some people get offended.
DeleteGraham, this post’s comments have wandered far afield from the incidents referred to, albeit somewhat obliquely, in the post of mine that spawned your post. New York’s Governor Andrew Cuomo did not compliment someone anout her smile; he asked someone who worked fir him if she ‘would eat the whole sausage’ —his words allegedly, not mine. It was construed by the recipient as being sexual harassment.
ReplyDeleteBob, I didn't 'wander' far afield. I intentionally dealt with the issue in general terms not specific terms. I understood your statement as to what is and is not an apology to be a general rule and not specifically referring to the incident you mentioned. Your post simply asked whether those were or were not apologies in general. I accept, obviously, that the case you mentioned was totally different to what I did. I can well understand what your politician said was construed as sexual harassment.
DeleteWhen did a simple thing like an apology become so confusing? Or why? If "I didn't mean to hurt" is acceptable when I accidentally run into someone with a supermarket trolley why is it not when it comes to someone's emotions rather than their toes? I just thank heavens I'm female, it's much easier for us to not get it wrong.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Pauline. I love your down to earth common sense.
DeleteThe key is in Pauline’s comment — the word ‘accidentally’ applies to the toes and the trolley, yes, but not, I think, to Governor Cuomo. He was very deliberate, and repeatedly so, or so it seems to me.
DeleteWe have exhausted this subject, I think.
Bob, I don't think you bothered to read my post or the comments. I referred to your post because it gave me the idea. I then went on to say very specifically "My question, though is 'When is an offence for which an apology is demanded due an unconditional apology?'" Not one of my commenters has mentioned Governor Cuomo or what he did.
DeleteAnd that is part of the problem, I’m discussing apples and your commenters (mostly from the UK, perhaps?) are discussing oranges. I did read your post. Wanting to take a middle-of-the-road approach and not being judgmental before the evidence is investigated are one thing; changing the subject is another.
DeleteI will try to stop now. I get your point. I don’t think you get mine.
Since I live in New York, I'll address Governor Cuomo. I think this is a case of people trumping up "offences" in order to get rid of him so that they can put a Trump-lover in his place. They're trying to get control, and this flurry of bandwagon jumpers is just more of the same disgusting skullduggery.
ReplyDeleteAs for unconditional apologies, I won't make them unless I actually did something wrong. If I made a statement with a clear heart and someone misunderstands me and gets offended without talking to me to find out where I'm coming from, that's their problem. I am a kind person, and I will never knowingly offend someone I don't know. If I know someone and intend to offend them, it will be unmistakable. If I inadvertently offend a stranger, and they speak with me and explain why something I said or did was offensive, and I see that I stepped over a line, I will of course apologize. But I'm not apologizing for being courteous - and neither should you.
As for the whole "getting in trouble for being courteous" - I think women need to stamp that shite right out. Whenever a man (or a woman, or a giraffe...) holds the door for me I always say "Thank you so much!" and scoot right through the door. If I see someone with an armful of packages trying to get into the post office or wherever, whether they are a man or a woman, I jump for the door and hold it open for them. I've never had a bad comment. Why should women be allowed to be courteous and men are chastised for it? That's just bollocks! Everyone should be kind to everyone, whenever possible. If someone is such a misery guts that they can't appreciate kindness shown to them, just ignore them and carry on.
Thank you, Marcheline. That comment really cut through the crap and got to the point. I very much appreciate it.
DeleteAmen Marcheline!
ReplyDeleteAmen and thanks, Jill.
DeleteThere are many times, I am sure that my actions or words have offended someone, knowingly or not. If the person were to explain to me what the issue was then certainly an apology would be given right away. But there have been instances where a person has suddenly shifted from a formerly friendly attitude and not given a clue as to what happened. This hit home for me because that was the case with former neighbors who we were friendly with when they lived here, but as they were moving out, there was a noticeable shift and not even a farewell.
ReplyDeleteBeatrice, I have long since given up trying to understand many people with whom I have come into contact. I am quite WYSIWYG and I started off assuming others were too. Of course, 'tis not so.
DeleteSoon you'll have to apologize for not having posted for a while. Hope all is well.
ReplyDeleteU
Many apologies Ursula and thank you for your concern. I am okay but I'm not at home. With a bit of luck I'll get a post done tomorrow.
DeleteI was just on the verge of reminding you how long it has been since this post. We get concerned when we don't hear from you.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Jill. I've been remiss. Actually I've been gardening whilst the weather was suitable prior to coming away.
DeleteLooking forward to gardening posts when you return.
DeleteJill, you may wish that you hadn't said that by the end of the summer!
Delete