How often do we hear the sentence "You don't understand" in relation to something someone is going through? One blogger in my Blogworld recently said that she had been suffering from a bout of clinical depression.
I often think about the experiences in my life and think about how they have made it easier for me to understand what other people are going through or what other people may think.
The latter is easier to understand because my whole professional training from my short period on a medical ward when I was straight out of school to my professional career as a bureaucrat involved being able to see all points of view of a situation.
I originally read public administration and my post-grad was business administration.
In the short period when I was reading for a law degree and then for the English Bar it was drummed into one that a lawyer must always be able to see both sides of the case in order to win whichever side he represented.
I came North and never did become a lawyer (English and Scots law are different). However the ability to see all points of view was absolutely invaluable when preparing a case to present to politicians either at local council level or, as was often the case, trying to persuade the Scottish Office to accede to one of the Council's requests.
When it comes to understanding what people are going through I fall back on my experiences in life from post-operative depression after having part of my lung removed when I was 16/17, the death of our elder son in 2006 and living with cancer since I was operated on in 1998.
I must stress that in their own way though they were awful experiences - particularly Andy's death - they were also a way of making it possible to understand what other people may be going through. That in itself makes real empathy possible.
Depression is different though because when you actually are going through it you don't have control. Even then I was sure it would pass and when it did I've been fortunate in that it never returned. However it was a superb experience because it's enable me to understand what it's like and empathise with those who suffer. However I still do not to go for long walks on my own as I did then day after day, mile after mile because 60 years later it still brings the experience (not the depression) back to me.
After all:
Well said Graham. Sometimes I think the most empathy you can give someone is to admit you cannot REALLY understand how they are feeling, but you know they are hurting and you care.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to see you are still in Blogland, Jayne. I think you are absolutely correct. What I was attempting to get across was that having experiences or seeing the other person's point of view makes genuine empathy possible.
DeleteI think you hit the nail on the head by saying one must experience it to understand it. I have gone through deep depressions about 3 times in my life, twice as a teenager (those are awkward years) and the last time was about 6 years after a bad relationship breakup. My other half has said to me he doesn't understand depression, not in a mean way but just that he has never gone through it and I guess it's like most things, if you haven't experienced it you just don't know.
ReplyDeleteAmy, I think depression is one thing that is very hard to understand if you have never experienced it. It is probably the one thing I hear people say they do not understand more than any other.
DeleteUnderstanding mental illness and trying hard to help when being told by your partner that he is being controlled by voices in his head is not made any easier. It is not a magic answer.
ReplyDeleteRachel, you are, of course, absolutely correct. My post was really aimed at saying that we really do need to try and understand situations because only by knowing what we do not understand can we either try and help or be empathetic. I'm sure that if I hadn't actually had depression I wouldn't really have true empathy for someone who has it. There are, however, as you say no magic answers.
DeleteBeing with somebody who is seriously mentally ill I know renders understanding and listening and trying to help totally irrelevant, believe me. However well meaning it is. The seriously mentally ill are in denial about being so, spurn help, and want everything their way and give nothing. I am talking about the very, very seriously mentally ill. I tried to understand for years.
DeleteRachel, of course I don't know all the circumstances but the fact that for years you tried to understand tells me that you had enough empathy to persevere. Perhaps trying in those circumstances is the best we can do.
DeleteI feel that everyone reacts to situations very differently, so we never really understand what someone is going through. It doesn't mean we don't care, however. Sometimes the only thing you can do is let someone know you are there for them and willing to listen. X
ReplyDeleteJules, I agree with you. One's own experiences and and ability to understand does, however, make it more likely that we really do care and that our listening is empathetic.
DeleteOne of American humorist Erma Bombeck’s books was entitled If Lufe Is A Bowl Of Cherries, What Am I Doing In The Pits?
DeleteBob, I know of the book but I'm not sure that it adds much to this topic (any more that my photo did).
DeleteI often bristle at "you won't understand" or different forms of that notion. It denies the possibility of empathic imagination and intelligent compassion. I may not understand but I can try my best to understand and sometimes that is enough.
ReplyDeleteNeil, I'm not sure how I'd cope with that being said to me. I think a lot would depend on what the subject of the understanding was.
DeleteYes its a complicated situation trying to empathise. It is easier if you have experienced the problem yourself but giving support by just listening to others tell their stories can be helpful.
ReplyDeleteYes, Diane, I think there is general consensus about that.
DeleteI like your ending of this post. We also have to become very observant as to what is happening around us so that we understand a situation.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Red, and you are certainly the master of observation.
DeleteGraham, I've been struggling with communicating with a particular person lately. Nothing in my background or experience has prepared me for this. I feel I should be able to get through but the best I can do is admit I can't and just be there. You, my friend, are the best of friends, I'd choose to have you on my side in any situation.
ReplyDeleteGosh, Pauline. I'm overcome. That's a truly lovely compliment to receive. Thank you. I'm very surprised, though, at what you say about you and who-ever-it-is. You are a real people person and have so much experience of dealing with situations and people that it sounds as though the person concerned has a rather unusual problem.
DeleteLike you and several of the others here have said, we may not always be able to fully understand, as everyone experiences situations on an individual level, but we can still try, and even if we know it does not make much sense in trying (for instance, I can not really relate to the experience of a refugee, never having been in such danger myself), we can show that we care. Brushing off someone's kind words by saying "You don't understand" is impolite, ungrateful and rude.
ReplyDeletePS: I recognise the cherries, the plate and the table they are on :-)
DeleteWow, Librarian. "Brushing off someone's kind (?) words by saying 'you don't understand' is impolite, ungrateful and rude"? Sweetheart, it's not about YOU. If the other person doesn't feel understood he/she doesn't feel understood. Deal with it.
DeleteLet's hope you'll always make yourself understood and don't judge others others as "impolite, ungrateful and rude".
U
Meike, I think you are correct. It is rude. However the person may be either really beyond help or may be in such a state that they don't really appreciate the empathy or they may just be self-obsessed and rude.
DeleteOn the subject of the cherries I suddenly thought of them and regurgitated the photo.
Ursula, if someone is rude then why should someone else deal with it? Not being understood and saying to someone "You just don't understand" are different things and require different mindsets. You are invariably combative and often rude and, given your frequent assertions to the contrary, obviously either oblivious to the fact or just enjoy being that way.
DeleteSorry, Graham, I clearly didn't make myself understood in my reply to Meike. Please do read what I said again.
DeleteHow can someone complain about another (the one who feels NOT understood) as "impolite, ungrateful and rude"? This has nothing to do specifically with Meike who, I am sure, is a thoroughly nice person, but with our self centeredness. Seriously, Graham, I may be "combative" as you say but not in a million years would I say or think what Meike did when someone says to me "You don't understand". I'd take their word for it. I'd take them seriously. I'd ask to make me understand - if possible. Or leave it at that. MY failing - I am the one who makes the other feel NOT understood. How can that sentiment "You don't understand" be a "brush off" as Meike put it, "impolite, ungrateful and rude"?
Meike's sentiment reminds me of my mother. I don't call at the usual time (for good reason), my father sends me an email that my mother is "worried". Let's leave aside the subtext. So, first chance, I call (after all, mustn't worry people - why the hell is she "worried" anyway?). What do I get? A tirade. That's how "worried" she was about me. In truth it was about her. And that is how I interpret Meike's complaint.
One more point, and then I shut up, people - for whatever reason - may like to "help". Woe betide you if what THEY think will help you you decline. Bingo. Once more it becomes about them not the one they want to "help".
U
I rarely understand so folk are entitled to brush me off. Should some unfortunate require practical help then I'm usually willing as long as it's nothing too strenuous. If they have gone a bit loopy then I do my best to ignore it, nowt anyone can do for mental problems though many get well paid for pretending they can.
ReplyDeleteAdrian, you are far more understanding than you let on. However you love creating a persona to give the contrary impression.
DeleteYou should speak to the bloke I currently spend half an hour to an hour with every other day. He has a brain tumour and is into the last lap. I'll not say what he calls me as I know you are sensitive to special words. Good job it's water off a ducks back to me. It has it's humorous moments. On Saturday I asked if he was in pain. He said he was, I asked where it hurt and he said both my feet are killing me. I looked and noticed he'd got his shoes on side to side. Nearly wet myself laughing but swapped them round for him at no small risk to my person. Told him he was degenerating fast and morphing into Diane Abbot. I'll not relate his reply as it's not for sensitive ears and was more than a bit jumbled as is normal now. He did recall who Diane is which rather depressingly was the highlight of my day.
DeleteAdrian, you have just proved my point. You are a very caring big softie but I won't tell anyone. I shall email you what I nearly wrote in continuation in my original comment.
DeleteThere is much to consider here, Graham. As far as I know, I have not dealt with someone gripped by serious depression, but it is equally possible that I was simply unable to recognize it. Even at that, I am not sure how I might have reacted. My usual approach to life is "get over it and get on with it" but that would be of no use to someone whose mental state simply precluded "getting on with it." Without going into great detail, a couple of months ago a young fellow (45 years old) I knew reasonably well (he had joined several of my bird walks) committed suicide. I had no idea he was in such a precarious mental state. Is that because he hid it well or that I was unable to recognize it? I will never know, and sadly, if a similar circumstance were to present itself today, I doubt that I would be any better equipped to intervene in any positive way.
ReplyDeleteDavid, the problem with serious depression is that people often don't display any symptoms and, in any case, there are many types of and causes of depression. I have a friend I have known for decades who has suffered from severe medical depression all her life but I have never once seen a symptom of it. I might, and only might, recognise a few symptoms if someone was seriously depressed and I knew them well. Unless someone is prepared to talk about it there is little anyone can do about it. And, of course, until the last few years it has been a fairly taboo subject, particularly amongst men.
DeleteDavid M. Gascoigne's comment above hit the right note.
ReplyDeleteSome things are impossible to understand. Depression (in others) is one of them. It's hard to fathom why you see the sun shining and the other person is in the dark. My heart goes out to Rachel. Forgetting something as sinister as depression (and it is sinister) let's just talk illness. The physical rather than the mental stuff. Fact is I am crap at dealing with others' sickness. As a friend of mine smiled at me whilst I flung my arms around her: "Please don't pull off my wig, Ursula." She died soon after, wig in place, cancer having got its claws into her.
When my father was diagnosed with cancer of the bladder some twenty five years ago (he is well and alive) I just ignored the whole thing. Probably just as well. Neither do I tell anyone when something is amiss with me. You'll find those who wish you "well" descending on you like vultures on a carcass. Crocodile tears. Keep them.
An insightful post into your own workings, Graham. Hats off. I do think life a bowl of cherries. Not least because we were given life in the first place. Just remember to spit the kernels inside those cherries. That's fun. You might even plant a new cherry tree. Neither ever promise anyone a rose garden (or expect one).
May gale forces spare you,
U
Thank you Ursula. Actually the severely mentally ill never say things like "you don't understand" so I found Graham's post very difficult.
DeleteNow that, Ursula, is an eminently reasoned post and shows a very different side to you than your usual combative one. I agree very largely with what you say although I have had quite a few friends diagnosed with and die of cancer (including my elder son) and I have never cried crocodile tears. If I can't be of positive use I say nothing. I think many people are more empathetic than you give them credit for.
DeleteRachel. I can do nothing but agree with your experience because it was your experience. When I wrote what I did I wasn't thinking of severe mental illness but of the general situations that many people find themselves in at one time or another in their lives.
And that - the general situations - was exactly what I had in mind when I said a brushing-off with those words is impolite and rude, not someone suffering depression or other illnesses. How a comment kept brief can lead to such misinterpretation is a valuable lesson.
DeleteThe philosophical tone of this post reminds me of a similar quandary where homeless people are concerned. I hear a lot of "Well, just give them money and help them! Buy them a coat! Give them a meal!" Sometimes it is possible to do this, but over the years I have come to realize that many of the homeless are on the street because they have undiagnosed and untreated mental illness. You can't, and shouldn't, just walk up to them and try to engage them in conversation, or give them something. Often they are extremely wary, and strangers approaching them sets them off. They sometimes yell and scream, or run away, or just turn away and refuse to engage. The homeless are, in some ways, just like the rest of us - we don't want strangers assuming they know what we need, or assuming we want them to approach us. It's a tricky problem, a sticky wicket. And not easily fixed by simply providing money or physical goods.
ReplyDeleteMarcheline, I could not agree more on the subject you have raised. The problem is far far more complex than any of us wish to accept or believe.
DeleteI fear something may be lacking in my education or experience, because even after googling I'm still not sure I quite get the bowl of cherries thing! I fully agree it's important to try to learn to look at things from different points of view, though - lawyer or not. And even when our own experience does not match the problem someone else is facing, it may be worth while trying to imagine what it might be like from their perspective. I also find reading books helpful in increasing understanding of people and situations that one may never actually encounter in one's own life.
ReplyDeleteMonica, "Life is just a bowl of cherries" is a song. You'll find it on YouTube with, amongst others, Judy Garland singing it.
DeleteLife is just a bowl of cherries
Don't take it serious
Life's too mysterious
You work, you save, you worry so
But you can't take your dough
When you go, go, go
Keep repeating, it's the berries
The strongest oak must fall
The best things in life to you were just loaned
So how can you lose what you never owned
Life is just a bowl of cherries
So live and laugh at it all
Keep repeating, it's the berries
You know the strongest oak has got to fall
The sweet things in life to you were just loaned
So how can you lose what you never owned
Life is just a bowl of cherries
So live it, love it, wriggle your ears
And think nothing of it, you can't do without it
There's no two ways about it
You live and you laugh at it all.
I was using the lawyer example simply because there was so much emphasis on it in that discipline. It was probably an unnecessary addition to the post.
Your point about trying to imagine what another person is going through is, I agree, very good advice.
PS Monica, yours is now another of a growing number of comments that does not appear in my email notifications. Have you altered anything recently that you think might cause that. I'm now in the situation if I don't constantly check my posts I am very likely to miss comments.
DeleteGraham, I have not altered anything recently, but I know one or two others don't get blog email notifications from me either (since way back). Alas, I've found no explanation or solution (so just sort of dealing with it from case to case, and not assuming I'm being ignored...) About the bowl of cherries, I did find that song on the internet but still couldn't figure out if the song is based on some older common saying/proverb or vice versa. (Never mind!) As for your lawyer example I don't find it out of place at all, but on the contrary well worth thinking about.
DeleteGraham, you can easily check comments by clicking on 'comments' on the sidebar in dashboard. You will see comments listed here in the order as and when they come in, regardless of which post they are for. An easy way to check.
DeleteThanks Rachel. I use it for comment moderation but I much prefer keeping up to date when I read my emails. I have a separate address for separate things including, of course, each of my blogs. I'll probably have to change the way I do things.
DeleteRachel I should have added that the reason I use the emails is because I use my phone to keep up with things and can only easily use the blog dashboard on my Macbook.
DeleteI started to yesterday but decided not to publish, but reading the other comments now I will. I was a Samaritan many years ago. One of the things they impressed upon us in training is that one should never say "I understand how you feel" because you don't - everyone's experience is different. You mainly just listen.
ReplyDeleteTasker, I've discussed this in the past with various friends who were Samaritans and they said exactly the same (as one would expect, of course) but I think there are subtle differences in the roles of friends and Samaritans. Having said that it is my view that the most important things for anyone who has a friend with problems is firstly to be able to just listen and secondly to know when to say something. Therein lies the most difficult of of decisions - whether to say something and, if so, what.
DeleteHugz, Graham xx
ReplyDeleteThank you, Margaret. Hugs are always welcome, especially in these times.
DeleteThis post did generate a lot of feedback possibly because many have either been affected in some way by depression or known someone who has been. In my case, both instances are true and as someone also commented often it is hard to recognize either in ourselves or others. The holidays especially are difficult times for many and, of course, this year that situation is magnified by the inability or family and friends to get together in person. Phone calls and video chats are wonderful but not exactly the same as human touch.
ReplyDeleteBeatrice, you made me think hard with your comment about depression being hard to recognise. Not because I didn't know that but because I had not really thought about it except in people whom I know who are bipolar (and who often don't show mood swings because the are on medication).
DeleteI have a short list of things I try never to say "I know how you feel" is one of them.
ReplyDeleteI'll say "I've been there" if I think I have an idea but otherwise I try not to assume.
My other no-nos are asking when people will have a baby, marry,move in together etc and I try not to impose my opinion on people's personal business (I have plenty of opinions, just try not to say what they are)
Lots of conversation here! You opened an interesting topic
Kylie, I absolutely agree about "I know how you feel" because no person ever knows how another feels however well they think they know them. To me it's the sort of thing I would say when someone says that they don't like seeing raw oysters slipping down someone's throat. I agree on not foising my opinions on others.
DeleteEmpathy...a very significant word.
ReplyDeleteIt is very important for one to have emotional understanding.
Only a couple of days ago I started writing an article...and mentioned therein the importance of empathy. Earlier, I'd been speaking with a friend about, not the importance of being earnest, but the importance of being empathetic.
Lee, it is a very important quality but I'm beginning to wonder after this post and all the comments about the difference between striving to have empath and succeeding.
Delete